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If her husband does not want to prolong her life, yet her blood parents do, in the words of Bob Neumeier "What's wrong with that?"

Actually, it is true that the person does not feel the pain. I checked with my friend Maureen whose father had cancer and could not eat. He wasted away to 75 pounds and was alert and oriented up to the end. She would ask if he felt pain, he said no. I also checked with my aunt who has been a nurse for many years and she told me that they do not feel pain and that Terri's state is so bad. There was a special on last night showing the cortex of her brain and such. And contrary to what I have been hearing Michael Schiavo DID have Terri get rehab. Although, I am a church goer and value life, it does not justify these religious people painting Michael as a villain. My viewpoint has been changed as a result of knowing that he did try to help her and that he truly does love her. I just wish there was a different way so that it didn't seem so barbaric. People, religious and otherwise need to stop painting things to their slant. And it is all the more wrong for religious people to do it because they claim they have a standard. Live up to it or shut up, that is my motto.

This is what I get. I get that the husband wants to put closure on this big bundle which is his marriage, his history with Terri and Terri, herself. He says that she told him that if she was ever "in a vegetative state" (we all talk like that, don't we?) that she would not want to live. Unfortunately, she didn't write it down or tell anyone else this information. So, it's hearsay, right? Okay.
Well, surprise, surprise, Charles. I sympathize with him. He's started a new life, and I don't fault him that, but he can't put his old life behind him because Terri is hanging in there. I would probably feel just like him. But this is where it gets sticky. She can breathe on her own. And other people who love her, care for her, visit with her,... swear that she responds to them. Her mother and father love her. They want her; they are willing to take over the burden of being there for her. She did not tell them that she wanted to be put down if she was in this state.
The tragedy is that these two parties have not come together on this with a single plan. But see, once you're dead, you're dead. Keeping her alive, even for a little longer buys you the time to discuss it with the families and doctors, do more testing, talk to more professionals. Why not?

Heidi,
Do lobsters feel pain when you boil them?
Do lobsters feel pain when you cut them open alive and stuff them and put them in the oven?

ps. Yes, I know that they can't talk and tell us.
Did you know that they used to do surgery (cardiac, I believe) on premies without anaethesia because Medical experts said that they had not yet developed the ability to feel pain? Guess what? They were wrong and they don't do THAT anymore.
-h

Oh yeah,
Do lobsters have brains?

...and while we are on the subject of RELIGION and the non-sectarianism of the Government and the Judicial System in all of this, let me ask you this. How cruel is it for this Roman Catholic Family to have to go through all of this ...THIS WEEK. Like the JUDGES couldn't wait till after Good Friday and Easter to put Terri to sleep. So...it will be an anniversary for this family. Every year around Easter they can remember that that's when their daughter died. Jesus, I work in Pediatric Oncology and we try our darndest to keep our kids who are terminal alive around Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and such. How stupid and callous is this?

So Heidi's father died a painless death, that to me is conclusive proof that all humans die painless deaths regardless of the circumstance....I think NOT!!!

Charles, Now that you use FOX NEWS as a source does that mean you are a Jesus Loving, Self-rightious Right Winger??

From: Caruso, Heidi
To: 'charles@radiowavex.com'; 'ellono@richnet.net'
Cc:

Subject: Terri's Passion
Sent: 3/25/2005 11:37 PM
Importance: Normal
Watch.
She'll die on Easter and if you think the Religious Right is obnoxious now, YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN' YET!

It's perfect! If this isn't a Passion Play, I don't know what is.
Hey- Where's Mel when you need him? : )

The only way she can have any impact on Easter is if she asks for water and food. That's about as likley to happen as Charles joining the "Delayed Vocations Program" at St. Johns Seminary in Brighton :-)

Let me just add this. I don't agree with starving her to death. I neglected to say that. I realize that on her death certificate it should say "death as a result of starvation" unfortunately, it will be sanitized and tidied up in a pretty little package. I don't agree with what is going on as far as what they are doing but I also don't agree with the religious people distorting facts either to suit their argument. That is wrong and so against what they claim to believe. The ends do not justify the means. Even Jesus would not do that. I do agree and do not understand why Michael just doesn't give her to her parents. That I think is selfish. And H if you noticed, I did say starvation is barbaric. Perhaps you should read before you attack me. Do you need new glasses? I think that just because she does not feed herself does not mean that she should die. My sister in law who has MS is fed through a tube. I also worked in a rehab and saw brain injured people get better. If she has that chance, more power to her. I think she should be given every opportunity to recover. Hey H, she is not a dog and this is not "putting her to sleep" as you worded it. She is a person. If we starved a dog, we would be in prison for it. I agree it is sticky and she is breathing on her own which is why I don't feel that she is brain dead. It is just a phrase used to assuage guilt. Hey Danny, it was not my father, I don't know where the jerk is. So get some glasses will you!? I was just simply sharing an observation. And I do not think all people die a painless death and I did say starvation was barbaric. Get a clue before you attack and make sure you have your facts straight!

Let me just add this. I don't agree with starving her to death. I neglected to say that. I realize that on her death certificate it should say "death as a result of starvation" unfortunately, it will be sanitized and tidied up in a pretty little package. I don't agree with what is going on as far as what they are doing but I also don't agree with the religious people distorting facts either to suit their argument. That is wrong and so against what they claim to believe. The ends do not justify the means. Even Jesus would not do that. I do agree and do not understand why Michael just doesn't give her to her parents. That I think is selfish. And H if you noticed, I did say starvation is barbaric. Perhaps you should read before you attack me. Do you need new glasses? I think that just because she does not feed herself does not mean that she should die. My sister in law who has MS is fed through a tube. I also worked in a rehab and saw brain injured people get better. If she has that chance, more power to her. I think she should be given every opportunity to recover. Hey H, she is not a dog and this is not "putting her to sleep" as you worded it. She is a person. If we starved a dog, we would be in prison for it. I agree it is sticky and she is breathing on her own which is why I don't feel that she is brain dead. It is just a phrase used to assuage guilt. Hey Danny, it was not my father, I don't know where the jerk is. So get some glasses will you!? I was just simply sharing an observation. And I do not think all people die a painless death and I did say starvation was barbaric. Get a clue before you attack and make sure you have your facts straight!

Heidi,
My bad....your friend Maureen, sorry. BTW I've got glasses and an appointment for an eye examination next week!!
Mr. McGoo aka Danny

P.S. nice to see Heidi making as much sense as "h" :-)

Hey Mr. Magoo aka Danny, Can I come with you for that eye exam? I think I sent the message twice. lol

Hey Mr. Magoo aka Danny, Can I come with you for that eye exam? I think I sent the message twice. lol
Heidi

Ya know I used to have lofty opinions on this too, until I had to go there with my son. Everything I thought I knew went straight out the window. No matter what I would have decided, I'd have felt guilty. A durable power of attorney might have made me feel less guilty, but I don't know for sure. Fortunately, I didn't have to "do" anything in the end. The doctors I trusted the most were the ones who admitted that the more they learn about the brain, the more they realize they don't know. The only opinion I have now is that's it's too bad this has turned into a circus. As for what's "right" -- I still don't know.

Bongo,
I don't know what's right either, I would however Prefer to error on the side of life. That's what seperates Humanity from Snakes, Rodents, Weasels and Charles :-)

To be perfectly honest, Danny, I was leaning your way but had to ask myself if that may have been a selfish refusal to let go. Still don't know the answer to that one either.

This is such a hard case. I admit, I feel the emotional tug. I can only imagine as a parent going through this. I am an aunt but not a parent. I am protective though. I was speaking with my friend Ben the other day and I said "Ben, if this was Christopher Reeve, would we be having this conversation?" He said no. And yet Christopher Reeve had to wait for a machine to pump air into his lungs so he could speak. I am not saying they should have shut it off but to each his own. It just bothers me that people can make this decision based on what Michael SAYS. I thought if it wasn't written you couldn't just take another person at their word. I am horrified that Terri is bleeding from her eyes and such. That sickens me. I am not sure about feeling and not feeling but the parents also have to see their daughter go through this and have feelings about this. If this were my niece, I would grab her and run to where she could get every opportunity to get better. But beyond this, I have written my own paper and given it to my brother telling him that if I were on a heart lung machine to keep me alive to shut off the machine but if I were on a feeding tube to not pull it out. I am facing potential brain surgery to reduce the severity of the seizures I have and should something go wrong, I want to have that paperwork in place. To me having a machine breath for you when you are brain dead is not necessary. Harvest my organs then throw me out into a field somewhere! (ha) To have assistance in eating through a tube or having someone feed me is not extreme measures. Put me in rehab, give me the opportunity to regain that which I used to do. To starve this woman to death is horrible and a horrible thing to even imagine. And to make this decision for Terri is the most inhumane thing I have ever heard of. She obviously is not dying from her injuries and clearly is dying of starvation.

Heidi, you seem to have thought of everything, but it's just not that simple. There's almost always a ventilator invovled at first and many people are weaned off them, but in how long? A week, a month, 2, 6? Breathing is controlled by one area of the brain so breathing in itself doesn't mean much.
Now once the person is weaned, you're in scary territory because there's no way out if they stay there and don't improve any more. Removal of the feeding tube is the only thing legally allowed (although compassionate doctors will find any excuse to administer morphine and such as well) I've seen people recover from a vegetative state, and others stay there. I don't know where to draw the line because they started out the same, but wound up so different. One girl in our hosptial spent 3 months on a vent and in the end she made an almost full recovery. (walks and talks just fine) Lucky for her, she hadn't told anyone she didn't want a ventilator.
We were told the rule of thumb was "wait a year and then decide", but that's for traumatic brain injury...if it's from lack of oxygen then they say 3 months. Recovery after 7 years would be an absolute miracle.(which I've learned not to believe in) No matter how you look at it, it's all a crap shoot.

"Hey H, she is not a dog and this is not "putting her to sleep" as you worded it. She is a person. If we starved a dog, we would be in prison for it."
I agree it is sticky and she is breathing on her own which is why I don't feel that she is brain dead."
"It is just a phrase used to assuage guilt."

Heidi, you would be my perfect witness in a court of law. Look at what you said here. These are your own words. I used the phrase "putting to sleep" EXACTLY for the purpose of comparing her to a dog. If we starved a dog, we would be in prison? BING, BING, you are right again. So, is she worth LESS than a dog? Should these Judges be in prison?

Heidi, I don't need any more glasses. I'm the Imelda Marcos of glasses. I need a new sofa.

She IS breathing on her own, so she is NOT brain dead. Then..does that qualify her as "severely handicapped" and do we put "severely handicapped" people down (that dog reference again) without proof positive that that is what they want? Talk about opening a can of worms, Charles....(hmmm, Gypsies, Jews, handicapped....where have I heard that before??? :)

At least Kevorkian ("have cyanide, will travel" :)
dealt with conscious people. (Even if, in a few cases, there was nothing physically wrong with them, but they were "depressed".)
Sorry, Charles, I know he's your hero.

I totally agree with you that she is not brain dead and this is what angers me. I wish that people would stop saying that. Do you think they will have the guts to put death due to starvation on her death certificate? yea right. I am glad that your girl got better. So, do you have as many glasses as Elton John? lol

Heidi

oh and having a machine assist me in breathing when I am not brain dead is different than having a machine keep my body functioning when there is no blood flowing through my brain. That is what I do not want.

Heidi

and should the judges be in prison? yes if their actions contribute to the death of anyone.

Heidi

You know, Heidi, besides having a great name, you're not a bad person either. : )

Very thoughtful.

Not as many as Elton. And much classier.
-h

bongo: I'm sorry to hear about your son. Thanks for your perspective. You lived through it and you still can't say what's "right." I'm thinking that debates are all well and good, but people whose talking points are all black and white probably haven't been there.

choolie,
Every circumstance is unique. There is no black and white formula that works for all situations. The only hope is that whatever is decided for that particular person, everyone can walk away feeling at peace with the decision. Because that is a large part of that person's legacy.

-h

Dear H,

You must have a great name too! Thank you for the compliment. Ever get told your name belongs to a German Shepherd? I am still in counseling over that one. lol

Heidi

can I borrow some of your glasses?

Heidi,
Poodles and cocker spaniels.

Sure, you can have all of my glasses. Then, I'll have an excuse to just buy more and not feel guilty about it. '-)

-h

If given the choice between:
- 11 years in a coma staring at hospital walls and

- death

I would chose death and so would all of you.

The rest of it is pro-life political noise!

So H, how do you fit the glasses over your cocker spaniel and poodle ears? lol Let's go glasses shopping together. I do have to say Cisco, I would choose death over a coma but the tug is I think about my family too. This is why I sent my brother a note telling him what I wanted done. It's funny because sometimes doctors are wrong but you can never know either way. It's like where is Jimmy Hoffa buried. No one will every know. It's warring medical opinions and that is fertile ground for debate and no one will ever know.

Hey Guys,
To add a little humor to this serious, sad, and philosophical issue, remember the movie, "The End", with Burt Reynolds? I think he had a terminal disease (although it was a comedy..) and the whole movie was about him wanting to kill himself. Finally, at the end, he swims way out into the ocean ...to drown. Except,...he changes his mind because finally death could be imminent. And he turns around and starts to swim back, but he's tired and isn't sure that he's going to make it. So..he makes deals with God to help him have the strength to make it.
The point that I'm trying to make, too..is that we all say things when we are fine and there is no threat to our health on the horizon. I could easily say, in casual conversation, "Kill me if I'm incapacitated...". But, if I were compromised, like Christopher Reeves, would I necessarily feel the same way. And couldn't say to someone, "Hey! I was only kidding!" or "I've changed my mind!".....

Good point H but Christopher Reeve was not brain injured. He could still verbalize his wishes. We are just expected to take Michael at his word and honestly given all the flack the man has taken, it does speak volumes that he has not backed off. I mean maybe he thinks what he is doing is right and Terri did say that. There is so much speculation going around that he was abusive, that Terri was bulimic. Unfortunately, this is one of those things we will never find out about. Do I agree? No but I don't know and I wasn't there for the conversation. The waters are so muddied. I mean maybe he has lost hope that she will get better and figures it is the most humane thing for him to do. I know that it is hard to watch a person you love go through this. Although I have never been married, I do know that this past October and November, my Uncle was dying after years of Crohn's disease. The medication he was given caused his kidneys to fail then he started having dialysis. Then he had strokes and they didn't know why. The last time I spoke with him, he thought I was his sister. The decision was made to discontinue dialysis and I waited for the call. It is a lousy feeling to wait for the call. I would have given anything for him to stay but he and his wife decided to discontinue when and if he got to this point, apparently. I was angry with him that he quit but I guess he and his wife knew the futility of continuing. I wanted him kept around for selfish reasons. It may be that Michael wants her gone for selfish reasons. But it is not for us to judge that. You know? Sometimes I wish things were black and white. Does anyone have a new brain I can borrow? I can't think about this anymore and I am fried about it and can't deal with hearing about it anymore. This is one of those dueling medical opinion cases and as one of my friends says Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has them and they all stink.