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Ironic this assault on Freedom and Liberty is heralded as a victory by those who otherwise would resist this Fascist Tyranny by the very Commonwealth where most of our Freedom and Liberty were conceived. Not to mention hypocritical, tobacco is after all a legal and controlled substance.

Danny
Lifetime Non-Tobacco User

It's not even Saturday night yet, and Danny's already shitfaced and screeding with the West Virginia backwoods talk.

Insomnia is hardly an indictable offense, however Scurrilous Accusations and Vitriol should be! That having been said Fuck You and the RED SUX!! :-)

Danny,
As Charles would say, one person's exhale is another person's second-hand smoke.
So, both of you are half right.

Maybe they could create some ALL SMOKING establishments? You would have to show your pack of Luckys and sign a health waver at the door.

ummm... that's waiver.

And put in a great air filtration system, like they have in hospitals, that subtly, but not passively suck the smoke up into a ventilation system, so you wouldn't even know that there was smoke in the room. Nice paneling, bar, music...
However, with this law in place, would this have to be like the speak-easy's of a different era?

Yeah..H. That's it. Knock 3 times and tell'um Louie sent cha. Then as with all forbidden pleasures, a popular underground culture will develop around it, and everyone will want to get in. And before you know it everyone takes up smoking again. When you think about it...This new law could be the worst thing ever done to the anti-smoking movement.

h,
Or just don't hang out with people who smoke, and avoid places where they do. Makes more sense than giving up Freedom!

Right on! Danny

Hold on, all you "Yea, Danny" lackeys! Saying making strict anti-smoking laws is anti-American is bullshit. America is based on freedom of choice. The smoker chooses to smoke - it is their right! Excuse my ignorance, but I don't remember Jefferson guaranteeing "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of lung cancer". My right to breathe smoke free air supersedes anyone's right to smoke in public!

For more "breathtakingly fresh and dangerous Commie" ideas click here

I see, and so on and so on...I'm sick of being forced to breathe the carcinogens in the exhaust created by combustion engines as I jog along the super highway. Should they outlaw cars to protect me? Or should I go somewhere else to run?

Cigarette smoking is no more damaging then the chemical pollutants that engulf this country. If they are so concerned with our health, why doesn't our government pass a law prohibiting air pollution of all kinds? Oh yeah, that's right, they lowered the clean air standards so big industry wouldn't be in violation. It's the individuals that always pay.

Freedom allows people to make stupid decisions I agree...but it sure beats a Totalitarian government that decides what is best for everyone then outlaws everything else. People should have the choice to go into a PRIVATELY owned smoking or non-smoking venue or even suck on the tailpipe of an SUV if they choose. Don't take your 5 kids and pregnant wife to supper at Nick and Tony's pool hall, then demand that everyone around you snub out the butts because it bothers you. I'm not a smoker and find I can effortlessly find smokeless places to work or enjoy a meal. That is my choice. Once liberties start being curtailed... it sets a precedent. I don't like it.

tblade5000,
Interesting take Comrade. What part of Not subjecting yourself to the toxins exhaled by smokers don't you understand? Let me put it this way it's your body and your Choice! Well not in Massachusetts anymore the State Conrtols your freedom of Association and CHOICE. What's next?

There they go- crying again- just like TBlade predicted:

"What about the toxins from caaaaahs??!! and trucks??!!! W-a-a-a-a! Hey, If I can give lots more examples of other bad things that they haven't been able to completely ban yet, then my argument gets really good!! What about paint fumes from the new house they're painting down the street?!! Next thing you know, they'll be trying to ban THAT- those commy bastards!! W-A_a-a-a-a-!"

Give me a break.

These are old and hackneyed arguments. The idea of banning smoking is a simple one, and one which- if you really think about it- actually should be adopted by Conservatives and Libertarians! Bottom line: If anyone who chooses not to smoke cannot avoid the second-hand smoke (which is well-documented as toxic and cancer-causing), then he/she has the unalienable right to be protected against it. This is a no-brainer. If smokers, outside or inside, could really keep their smoke to themselves, then Danny and LadyArtist might have a valid point, and there would be no laws passed. But, obviously, that is not happening. You can't go to an outdoor concert or into a smoking/non-smoking sectioned restaurant and NOT be subjected to the poisonous fumes. Anyone who thinks that outdoor smoking is okay because it is outdoors is in denial. Here's the edge that really cuts: You want to smoke in your car (with the windows closed)? You can. You want to smoke in the sanctity of your own home? You can. BUT... Watch out there as well, (and I said this five years ago) the day may come when you can be fined or even jailed for smoking in those "sacred places," if your family and your young children are present, and thus at risk. Second bottom line: Think of cigarette smoke as a very, very slow-killing substance, like arsenic, asbestos, "carbon monoxide" or "Sars germs," and all of a sudden the light dawns on you idiots. (Wait- did I say idiots? I am sorry, I just get so frustrated when I have to talk to rabid zealots as if they are five year-olds). Hear that noise? That's me responding to this ten-year old argument. It's over. You lost. The bill is now law. Enjoy the fumes during the temporary amnesty for the Democratic convention, because after that, we are all one step closer to breathing fresh air. Next hurdle: Go after SUV's, nuclear waste and breast implants- I mean industrial plants.

I don't agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it.

I have worked at bars. As a kid I sat through countless restaurant meals in the smoking section. Today, I exit office buildings, stand on mbta platforms, and walk the sidewalks and I am continually forced to inhale second hand smoke against my choice. Smoking is a selfish bad habit that directly affects others against their choice. Pollution causing cars, buses and trucks, while toxic, contribute great benefits of society. There are plenty of activities that are legal in the privacy of our own property but are illegal in public; smoking will soon be one of them. I’ll make a deal right here – smokers can keep spewing second-hand smoke if I can defend myself with “second hand coffee”.

So if Smoking is so bad why not Ban it? Why are users of a Legal Taxed Substance Discriminated Against? Where is the ACLU (All Criminals Love Us} on this one?

The ban-smoking movement was started in the Bay State for ONE REASON ONLY ...

The servers and tenders and buss help at these Massachusetts eateries and bars have unmistakable and undeniable rights to work in a safe environment.

This issue is not based on health, but more importantly WORKPLACE SAFETY.

Ten 44,
So if they don't like the Smoke GET ANOTHER JOB! Say working in a clean room at NASA or a Brain Surgeon, Hospital Worker, Drive Your own Tractor Trailor, be a Farmer or make Chips at INTEL! Maybe buy your own Bar or Resturant and make it a NO SMOKING establishment.
What about the Resturant and Bar Owners right to run their business the way they want?
Remember it's a legal substance. Not only do you have the right not to frequent those business, you also have the right not to work there.

Only problem with that logic, Danny, is that if one restaurant/bar is a "smokers only" restaurant/bar, that will be the restaurant/bar everyone goes to, and the other bars and restaurants will die. Ask any owner of a restaurant or bar in Brookline, Framingham or any other non-smoking town.
Sad but true- if you want to go "where the action is" you go to the place that allows smoking. That's where all the young "hotties" go, that's where all the celebs go, and that's where all the suits go. I would have thought you knew all this.
Most of the best that America has to offer out there, are addicted to nicotine.
Danny, you also should know better than to use the argument that, because it's legal, it is okay- You know how things get "made legal..." by pressure groups and special interests who have more power than any ordinary American individual can hope to overcome alone. But you know all this; you are just yakking for yakking's sake. Smoking is over in America. It's just a matter of time, and will happen during your children's generation. Oh wait, you don't have any children. That's right- What the fuck do you care about Iraq and the environment?! Your outahere in a decade or two.

Oh, come on Charles!! Like this is the most important toxin in our air and stop your hyprocrisy!!

"Sad but true- if you want to go "where the action is" you go to the place that allows smoking. That's where all the young "hotties" go, that's where all the celebs go, and that's where all the suits go. I would have thought you knew all this.
Most of the best that America has to offer out there, are addicted to nicotine."

That's the worst justification yet....so since people will still go willingly to where smoking is because the 'cool' people are there, the Government needs to pass a law equalize all establishments? Then maybe those girls at Hooters need to put some shirts on because the young, male lunch crowd is choosing to dine there instead of at my old, ugly clothed servers restaurant across the street. And liquor licenses shouldn't be given to just a few establishments, because the ones left out just can't compete. Where is American free enterprise? Yeah right Charles, and Prohibition stamped out Demon Rum!

People are innately are drawn to what is forbidden. Maybe the Government should demand that EVERYONE has to smoke. That would start a revolution. I applaud the well meaning intention, I just don't like the tactics.

>>Danny said “So if they don't like the Smoke GET ANOTHER JOB! Say working in a clean room at NASA or a Brain Surgeon…”>> Yeah, I am sure that 3 month pregnant bartender at the local pub turned down that Chief of Surgery position at Mass General because she has a passion for serving Wild Turkey to grumpy 50 year old chain smokers. The truth is that there is good money in the service industry and Americans must be allowed to carve out the best career for themselves they can. Believe it or not, there are plenty of college graduates who work in the service industry because they can earn a better living. So a female bartender making $50k/year slinging beers (at a smoking bar) and then gets pregnant; should she have to choose between her livelihood and her baby’s health? Should she go work at Wal-Mart for significantly less when her expenses will be going up? Should she just go on welfare? OSHA looks out for the industrial worker who encounter dangerous chemicals but not the restaurant worker who face those same chemicals when they come from smoking. >>“What about the Restaurant and Bar Owners right to run their business the way they want?”>> Oh, you mean like WR Grace’s right to run their business the way they wanted to? Dumping chemicals into the ground in Woburn?

Unlike WR Grace....Tobacco Use is Legal!!

Say what you will about the shitty fact that patrons go where the action is, and the action (for all the wrong reasons) is at a smoking bar. That is a fact. If heroine were legal, then it would be the same problem: All the musicians, young hotties, celebs and role models would be at the heroin bars. Fact of life- the young and "best America has to offer" want the quick high and the high-life. This is normal. Is that a good reason for outlawing hereoin? No- but it will still kill every other non-junk bar within a 20 mile area. Again, ask any restaurant or bar owner in any non-smoking town. I did not say we should ban smoking for the above reason. I simply responded to you and Danny's specious logic that implies there is a level playing field out there, and that all Americans are free to build smoke-free establishments if they want to. If you built a smoke-free bar, club or restaurant in a smoking community, you would not be a smart business-man; your business would go belly-up within a year. Sad, but true. So talk about the freedom "to open this or that, and to go here or there," but don't talk about that "freedom" as if it were a viable alternative.

"Only problem with that logic, Danny, is that if one restaurant/bar is a "smokers only" restaurant/bar, that will be the restaurant/bar everyone goes to, and the other bars and restaurants will die."

Charles,
It's called "Freedom of CHOICE"

"So a female bartender making $50k/year slinging beers (at a smoking bar) and then gets pregnant; should she have to choose between her livelihood and her baby’s health? "

Tblade500,
Same to you it's her CHOICE.....

Not everything is about choice. Where is the choice when I walk down the sidewalk and get smoke blown into my face? Where is the choice when a 6-year-old is forced to sith through a meal at Bickfords as their parents chainsmoke over a Big Apple? In these instances, choice is taken away. The Massachusetts legislature exercised their perogative and chose to ban smoking. I wish I could just choose to date Victoria Secrets models; unfortunately, I don't have that choice.

"I just get so frustrated when I have to talk to rabid zealots"
Charles-that's you talking.

You're out of control.

It won't stop with smoking. Next will be drinking; you know, drunk driving, cirrhosis, pancreatic cancer, then it will be fast foods that promote obesity, obesity being a health hazard that raises the insurance rates of everyone.

Actually, I LIKE the idea of private clubs, maybe with members-only status. Tough shit if everyone wants to go there; 'The Medium is the Message" as Marshall McCluen once said.

You know what the irony is to all this?
You're not going to be able to walk outside anymore. Smell the ocean? Smell the smoke.
And take a picture of litter-free Massachusetts for your kids. It's over.
Bean-town....how about Butt-town?
: )

Know what h, you're right! This is going to snowball out of control. That's it! I'm going right and buying a pack of Marlboro, non-filter, cigarettes and stopping into every bar in town and I'm going to light up as an act of Civil Disobedience. What's the fine? $100.00? I'll take my checkbook. Watch for me on the 11:00 news!

p.s. I hope you'll all write to me at the State Pen.

Women go to Framingham House of Correction. I live in Framingham. We seem to agree on a lot of things.
I'll visit.
: )

More on choices - if a person on government assistence (SSI, medicare)chooses self inflicted lung cancer, can I choose to send the weekly deductions from my paycheck to my local public schools rather than to his/her hospital bed? That would be a choice I would like to have. Let's review some more choices our big brother government took a way in recent memory. The have denied property owners the choice of lead paint when refurbishing homes and apartments. They have denied parents the choice not to use child safety seats for children under five. They have also taken away our choice to buy assault rifles like AK-47's. When will it end? At the bottom of this webpage http://www.monticello.org/reports/quotes/memorial.html. is a quote from a great American. To paraphrase, he basically says laws must go hand and hand with progress; as we become more enlightened and new truths are disclosed, we must change the laws to keep pace with progress. Look at how our view of smoking has progressed - it used to be common place for women to smoke while pregnant. Now society looks at these women as if they are Eva Braun reincarnted. As time passes, we become more enlightened about the dangers of smoking (see the June 30th post) and laws should reflect that. Smoking is a selfish bad habit with no place in public. Keep it at home.

tblade5000:

Good argument. Lead paint and Child safety seats are good examples.

"The new bill allows smoking in social clubs, tobacco stores and nursing homes."

What exactly is a social club? And what about the vulnerable employees that work at the hundreds of nursing homes in Mass? Why don't we care about them? What kind of discrimination do the these healthcare professional now face? Will our elderly now be abandoned as workers flee the tainted environment? And since you can smoke in tobacco stores...wouldn't that technically be anywhere tobacco is sold? Say a vending machine in a bar lounge? Can I light up in Stop & Shop perhaps?

True. Define Social Club? Is that a VFW Hall only or can it be a private club of any sort that allows smoking? Such as a Smoking Club mentioned previously. Knock three times. So, it seems that if the definition of Social Club is vague, it's a back door in this law. Okay.
I wouldn't be surprised if your definition of "Smoking Store" also gets tested, Lady Artist. This may bring the end of being able to buy ciggies at all types of establishments. Maybe this law will force only designated smoke shops to sell tobacco in any form. And all these other places, such as Stop and Shop and Walgreens will lose a fair amount of revenue. Of course they'll still have the Lottery. Another problem for weak-willed and addictive people............

And...to continue this thought, perhaps, Charles, there is a silver lining in this for you, too. If the law brings about the redefining of "Smoke Shop", much like "Gun Shop", there will be stricter adherence to selling cigarettes, and minors buying will less likely slip through the cracks. You will not be able to discretely buy cigarettes from a salesperson too harried to carry out age identifications. So, then, perhaps it will be even more difficult for minors to get a hold of the deadly weed. Studies have shown that most people start smoking in their teenage years and then suffer addiction. How many adults willingly, knowingly chose tobacco/cigarette addiction, after all.

"As you change a system, you must calm it."
With the no smoking laws maybe we also need rehab facilities that are covered by insurance, like drug rehabs. So, hey, I'm checking into the ashram for some cleansing and meditation. See ya' in a month or so. Wouldn't that be more fun than getting beaten up every day because you were a stupid kid who became a nicotine addict?